- Barack Obama during his March 4, 2007 Selma, Alabama speech.
This one is sure to cause a stir among the pro-abortion crowd.
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How would this cause a stir in any crowd? It’s a great statement. One would think the inherent message of personal responsibility would sit quite well with the conservative crowd.
The pro-abortion crowd doesn’t believe fatherhood begins at conception, let alone exists before it.
“One would think the inherent message of personal responsibility would sit quite well with the conservative crowd.”
Did my post give you any reason to think that the statement would not sit well with conservatives?
There is no pro-abortion crowd. You don’t have liberals out on the sidewalks trying to persuade women to have abortions.
I can’t speak for pro-choicers, but for myself, fatherhood begins when there is a child. So it becomes a question of when life begins. Why start at conception? It’s really not a question of choice vs anti-choice anymore, but rather “is a Christian holy book a viable source for knowledge/policy”.
Why should one American abide by the religion of another?
(Oh, and no, the post doesn’t suggest it would not sit well with conservatives. A most excellent point)
I guess it really depends on which definition of the word crowd you go by, whether or not you think there is no pro-abortion crowd or not.
I’m assuming that you consider yourself pro-life being that you say there is no pro-abortion crowd and that you cannot speak for pro-choicers, good for you.
A question of when life begins…why start at birth? Maybe it depends on your definition of birth or life is.
Who said one American should abide by the religion of another?
Only if one imagines some incredibly small amount of crazy people constituting a crowd, group, or any other cluster worth considering politically.
I am pro-choice and anti-abortion. I support a woman’s right to choose, but I believe in taking steps to reduce the number of abortions (and taking a look at why abortions happen).
When Obama said “Don’t think that fatherhood ends at conception”, he was speaking against people who are only biological fathers. Sex. Leave. Baby. That order.
I think the phrasing is unfortunate because it uses language common to the abortion debate.
To borrow your phrasing, who said life does start at birth?
I simply think that religion should be left out of this particular question. When it isn’t, that precisely is when one American begins pushing their religion on others.
Being pro-choice does allow you to speak for “pro-choicers”. I am glad to hear that you are anti-abortion and I agree that quite possibly under extremely dire circumstances, a woman would choose to have one.
I agree with you about what Obama said and that his wording might not have been what he intended, or was it?
Being that you think when fatherhood starts when there is a baby, did you mean when the baby is born or when there just happens to be a baby?
You have every right in the world to not think religion does not belong in that question, by saying,
“When it isn’t, that precisely is when one American begins pushing their religion on others.”
I look at it as you forcing your religion or lack of religion on me. Is your religion one to tell me that mine can’t be involved?
I suppose I wonder whether anyone can truly speak “for” a group in a representative sense. We can certainly do so in order to move that group towards a position we are taking (or make that group more attractive).
I suppose I mean when there happens to be a baby. Although I should probably start earlier. Fatherhood begins before there is the choice or opportunity for a child. After all, pre-natal health, making sure one can care for the child, etc, all play an important role.
There is a very important distinction. Let’s talk pork.
Some religions forbid the consumption of pork. Let’s say most the US was Jewish/Muslim. Let’s also say I am a member of this dominant religious group. Should I be allowed to dictate whether or not other people eat pork? Is this strictly a restriction on my religion being involved, or a restriction on my imposing my religious views on other people?
I’d say it is clearly the latter. Your own beliefs are just that: your own. You have every right to practice them. But why should I have to as well?
“Your own beliefs are just that: your own. You have every right to practice them. But why should I have to as well?”
Because I am the angry Christian conservative and I say you do!
Of course you know I am kidding, right?
I think if a man is willing to take part in the act that leads to him being a father, he should be a stand up father and be responsible.
Good discourse!
Heh.
Of course, but as the angry liberal, I am offended nevertheless!
Parenthood is indeed a shared journey. I do not think it is the act that necessitates this though. And I do think society needs better infrastructure in place to help parents.
Very much so!
Why does our society need a better infrastructure? Why can’t parents take responsibility on their own?
A baby without the act? Unless you are discussing cloning, there is an act. Be it the act between a woman and a man, the act of mixing the egg and sperm in a test tube or a petri dish.
A baby is a baby unless you wish to distroy it. Then, it is “not a living being,” a “fetus,” a “thing.” Recently, I saw pictures of a baby in its mother’s womb at 12 weeks into her pregnancy. This baby was 6 inches long and weighed 8 ounces. This baby moved, waved its little arms, had distinct features.
As far as being responsible for your child, you are. If you do not wish to be, do everyone a favor – make the choice – use your will – do not make a child. I don’t mean abort it. I mean do not make it. There is where the real choice lies – the real challenge. Use the will that separates humans from animals.
I think that was aimed at fitnessfortheoccasion, right?
I was not talking about a baby without the act, but that is besides the point. The point is that we need, as a society, to take care of all children.
As for this calling a fetus a baby, where do you draw the line? How about “I saw a really cute baby, it had 3 cells, and it’s mother’s mitochondria”. At some point you do not have a baby, but rather, a potential baby. I think we should draw this line with science.
Finally, as opposed to the human/animal distinction, why should sex always lead to reproduction? Unless you are bound by a biblical sense of sexual intercourse, then sex is not simply a means of creating families. It is and can be so much more.